Here is the response I posted:
Thank you for sharing this great collection of quotes and your thoughts on them.
I can certainly understand not liking what you believe to be the unavoidable logical implications of Calvinistic theology. Fair enough. I hope you won’t mind my asking a few follow up questions.
1. So, you deny that all events are ordained by God, correct? And your primary reason is that certain objectionable events have occurred, and you cannot conceive of a good God ordaining those events, correct? I want to be sure I am accurately understanding your position.
2. Okay, assuming I have understood you correctly, what are the alternatives?
- Does God ordain any events? Which ones?
- What are the primary differences between “ordained” and “non-ordained” events?
- Is God aware of “non-ordained” events before they occur? Or does He learn about them as they happen?
- Can anything outside of God (i.e., creation) exist without His initial creative action to “ordain” its existence? If not, how do we separate this initial “ordaining” action on God’s part from the creature’s subsequent actions, so as to say that God in no sense “caused” or “ordained” some of the creature’s actions? At what point do a creature’s actions begin to be “non-ordained”?
- What is the relationship between “ordained” and “non-ordained” events? Do some “ordained” events depend on “non-ordained” events (e.g., does the “ordained” event, forgiveness, depend on the “non-ordained” event, sin)? How does God “ordain” the good events without “ordaining” the evil ones that must occur in advance?
- Does God have the power and authority to prevent “non-ordained” events?
- If God foresees and allows an event, is He not in some sense “ordaining” its occurrence?
- Do “non-ordained” events happen in such a way that God cannot be said to maintain any control over them, i.e. to cause, allow, or prevent them?
- If these events cannot be caused, allowed, or prevented by God, what is His relationship to them? Does He have any authority or power over them?
- In what sense can any event occur outside of God’s ultimate oversight and authority? Does He maintain any sovereignty over these events, and in what sense?
I don’t expect you to answer all of these questions. My intent is simply to show that it is easier to object to Reformed theology’s answers than it is to propose a well thought out and Biblically grounded alternative.
Thanks again, and have great weekend.
Blessings,
Derek Ashton
Anyone who thinks deeply about these matters will quickly run into paradoxes. Is there a better solution than a Biblically faithful, Calvinistic compatibilism?
I saw your post today, and I had some free time, and I thought I would answer your questions for you. I am not the author of the original post you linked to, but thank you for linking to it.
ReplyDelete1. The first question, “yes.” The second question, “no.” Objectionable events are not the reason. The bible is the reason we do not believe it. For example, God did not ordain the fall. In Genesis 6, it says God was sorry he made man, and he decided to destroy everything. Then he saw Noah and decided to spare at least one family. What happened after that was ordained by God, because he specifically allowed the flood.
2. The alternatives are listed in the answers to your questions below:
a. Yes. I cannot list everyone. But I can point you to Amos 3:7. The Lord does nothing unless he reveals it to the prophets. Everything that God personally does was revealed beforehand. That’s why we can look at Acts 4 and see God moving, because he said he was going to do it long ago. If there hasn’t been a prophecy about it, God doesn’t do it of his own initiative. That being said, he has also will act when righteous people ask him.
b. This is answered above. God is the mover instead of man.
c. That seems like an odd question. He seems to at times. For example: Hosea 8:4.
d. Being the unmoved first mover does not negate the fact that other things created with the ability to move themselves can interact with other objects moving. As soon as God gave the creature options to choose between, the first cause can lost control.
e. God ordained the good event in response to the bad event. People sinned and God responded.
f. Sure. A better question is: does God have the power and authority to not ordain events?
g. Not taking action, is not the same as taking action. If I’m watching a shark about to eat a seal, but I could harpoon the shark before the seal was eaten, but I choose not to, did I ordain it to happen. Of course not. Allowing people to do as they please, as it says in Romans 1, is God’s choice, but he didn’t ordain the personal actions they made.
h. As indicated in Hosea 8:4, that happens. But just because God may choose not to control an event, doesn’t make him any less God.
i. Having authority or power over an event, again, does not cause the event. A general has authority over troops under his command and the power to demand actions, but those events still can play out in unintended ways even with still getting the desired outcome.
j. Sovereignty is simply the authority to rule as one pleases. The United States is sovereign, Canada is sovereign, China is sovereign. Using sovereignty doesn’t mean God controls everything, He is able to do as He pleases. There are no instances in the Bible where God takes control over a person and makes that person do something against his own will like a robot. Even Pharoah’s will was not changed, his heart was hardened in a way that resulted in God’s outcome, but his autonomous will was not overcome. You see it throughout the Old Testament. Jonah is a great example. Why didn’t God just impose his Will on Jonah. It took a request, then it took a storm, then it took a big fish, and finally Jonah “chose” to obey God. So, yes God oversees them, and may nudge or direct them, but not in a way that overcomes our will.
You do not have a well thought out and biblically grounded theology. You have a theology that claims God is personally responsible for abhorrent acts, which is in direct opposition to the entire narrative of the bible.
Those in the reformed community have made up a God without free will. In your estimation, God is completely bound by his “sovereignty.” You have created in your own mind a god that is simply unable to even create creatures who could live independently of him. As indicated in my question above “f,” God is great enough not to control every meticulous detail of the universe, when you make that a requirement of him, you make him out to be small and ultimately feckless.